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hovorkas
10 Posts |
 Posted - 05/10/2011 : 5:38:30 PM
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I would like to start discussion about reliability of the Origin software and about a way the Origin has been developed and upgraded.
Some weeks ago I started to use Origin in much more extensive manner (Origin 8.0 SP6, Origin was bought in 2009). First negative experience is that the manual and help files are not clearly written and it is difficult to find wanted information. But it is not principal problem. I have had problems with automatic updating of cell and column values after new fitting procedure. I found out (and the Origin support team confirmed) that there is a bug in the case of an use of Paste link and set column values commands. They suggested following solution:
The 8.5.1 release that is needed to fix the auto update bug unfortunately has introduced another bug that will cause your After Fitting Scripts not to run:
http://wiki.originlab.com/~originla/wiki/index.php?title=ReleaseNotes:Known_Issues_in_8.5.1
Maybe you don't really need the after fitting script if the Auto Update/Recalculate is all working?
It means, first, that they do not want to fix the bug in my version of the Origin despite the fact that it is not so old (they confirmed that it will not be fixed in the case of older versions than 8.5). Secondly, the quality of the work of Origin programmers is so low, that they build new bug during fixing a different bug. The support of Origin team has finished by the above stated sentences and by a mention that they contacted a dealer of the Origin software in the Czech Republic to offer me something (I did not understand what). After such terrible experience I was looking through the Origin Forum and through http://wiki.originlab.com. I have been surprised such long list of the bugs that had to be fixed even in the case of recently released versions. It seems to me that the way of developing of the software is not methodical and the programmers are solving the particular problems without any further consequences to be taken into consideration. I do not think that the fact of at least three released versions (8.0, 8.1, 8.5.x), around 10 released service packs and hundreds (maybe thousands) reported bugs in the last two years are attributes of a reliable software working properly. How is it possible, that the team developing Origin has not been able to develop reliable software despite the fact that the Origin software is on the market for more than 10 years?
I am afraid that the Origin team plays on the fact that there is a problem to find similar software as an alternative. I have been testing SigmaPlot 12 and Igor Pro 6.22 but SigmaPlot environment does not suit to me and I found a certain bug in Igor Pro (probably it is only problem with showing of a fitting curve in a graph, but a uncertainty persists).
I think that the users finding some problem should press the Origin team to solve problems in such way to reach the situation, when there will not be bug reports each day. According to me, the functionality and reliability of the software is such low, that the customers could ask for a partial refund of money paid for the Origin software.
I thank for opinions of other Origin users in advance.
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philliphales
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2011 : 11:17:00 AM
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| point taken |
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a.abc.b35
175 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 3:20:15 PM
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You are right.. I completely agree ...
AB |
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Brent00
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 5:41:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hovorkas
It means, first, that they do not want to fix the bug in my version of the Origin despite the fact that it is not so old (they confirmed that it will not be fixed in the case of older versions than 8.5). Secondly, the quality of the work of Origin programmers is so low, that they build new bug during fixing a different bug....
I think that the users finding some problem should press the Origin team to solve problems in such way to reach the situation, when there will not be bug reports each day. According to me, the functionality and reliability of the software is such low, that the customers could ask for a partial refund of money paid for the Origin software.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Certainly something to consider when deciding whether or not to purchase the software. |
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wildheart
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2011 : 12:08:16 PM
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| I was wondering if anyone else noticed how unreliable origin was. I completely agree with you there. |
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 07:07:04 AM
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I can add some news. Short time after my first contribution the Originlab support team contacted me and offered free upgrade from my OL 8.0 SR6 to the 8.5.1 version. They apologized for nobody had contacted me earlier with this offer. They claimed that there were personal changes in the Czech distributor office. Lets believe them. I tried to reinstall the OriginPro and now I am testing it. One problem was fixed, but I obtained new experience that causes that I cannot recommend an up-to-date version of the Origin software for purchase. I am trying to describe new bad experience in the following paragraphs.
When I was offered by a free upgrade possibility, there was the instruction:
Copy and paste-link the parameter values one more time, from the fit report sheet table (not the table embedded in graph) into the same cells where they were originally pasted. This step is necessary to update the OPJ to resolve the link issue
The information in the parentheses attached my attention. I made some tests and found out following facts. You are allowed to paste link between e.g. a sheet of the Workbook Table1, where parameter values obtained by fitting procedure are shown and stored for using in the graph, and your workbook Book1 with original experimental data, but this link does not work properly - set column values and paste link commands in other workbooks are not upgraded automatically. Moreover, when you try to rename Workbook Table1 to Table2, changes in set column values and paste link commands in other workbooks are not made automatically. When you, at least, try to edit paste link manually (you go in the cell with the written command and change Table1 to Table2 in the specification of the cell), calculation is done. But only in this case. And when you check the command in the cell again, you see that the software automatically edited the command line and put back original name Table1, which is not in use due to the mentioned change of name from Table1 to Table2. You have to really follow the personal instruction that the paste link function have to be done between two sheets of the same Workbook (e.g. Sheet 1 and FitNL2). However, instead of fixing of the problem in the software code, the Support team writes you in private communication how to obey the problem that persists.
My new experience is further example of the fact that you have to have knowledge of the program code with its errors to be able to use OriginPro properly. Do you think it is all-right?
By other words. Using actual version of the OriginPro software, you can get results that 1(value stored in one cell) +1(value in the second cell)=3, because, in reality, Origin calculates sometimes with values different from the values stored in the cells you tried to use in your command.
I try to summarize my experience and to write some recommendation for potential new users. If it is not necessary from some point of view, do not buy the Origin software now. There is a great potential of the software, but bugs will prepare you problems and high level of an uncertainty concerning to a reliability of the calculations. Instead of a purchase, write to the OriginLab team, that you will think about a purchase after problems with the functionality are fixed. As I mentioned in my first contribution, the OriginLab team has to be pressed to do new generation of the OriginPro software. Customers already using the software should ask for a refund or, at least, for free upgrades until they get reliable software.
I can add one experience from this forum. When I put the original contribution, the first user response stated that he/she was thinking about a purchase but maybe changed his/her mind. After short time this contribution disappeared from the forum (see that real number of replies 6 and number stated in the list of forums 7). Was this potential user offered by free licence? I do not know.
I have still a small detail. I had a comment on lucidity of the manual in communication with the OriginLab staf and in my first contribution in this forum. I received following response from the OriginLab staff:
We also appreciate your input on the documentation. We have recently hired additional documentation staff, so we do plan to make documentation improvements in the next version.
Lets wait for a result of their work (It is really necessary to get helpful documentation to be able find quickly needed information concerning syntax of all instructions etc.). However, hopefully, they will hire also additional competent staff to develop a new generation of OriginLab software without terrible bugs on varied levels of functionality, basic reliability performance included.
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Edited by - hovorkas on 05/25/2011 07:20:06 AM |
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EigenGoofy
64 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 4:08:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hovorkas
(It is really necessary to get helpful documentation to be able find quickly needed information concerning syntax of all instructions etc.).
This sentence is so right.
Origin should learn something from Matlab, esp the Reference document. Maybe that is why Matlab is much more popular than Origin. |
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riris
Singapore
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 10:45:17 PM
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| Is this discussion and all reviews are real? I don't know, but it makes me wonder to get the software. |
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bylor
1 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 09:03:23 AM
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| Hovorkas, after thoroughly testing the new version, please let us know if they have rectified the problems and if the other recommendations had the desired results. Thank you |
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 09:19:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bylor
Hovorkas, after thoroughly testing the new version, please let us know if they have rectified the problems and if the other recommendations had the desired results. Thank you
Today the new release (SR1) has been installed automaticaly. I am testing and I will see. |
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rodjef
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 7:58:59 PM
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Origin is in need of an upgrade but a true webmaster, otherwise it is always going to be as unreliable.
Rodney Jefferson |
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barny77
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2011 : 12:51:23 PM
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"We also appreciate your input on the documentation. We have recently hired additional documentation staff, so we do plan to make documentation improvements in the next version."
Glad to hear that and I hope is true.
Barny |
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andym98
1 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 5:38:55 PM
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| Yes I agree with most of the comments and the comparison with MatLab. Reliability is always an issue - but I suspect Origin is working on this. |
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 09:42:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bylor
Hovorkas, after thoroughly testing the new version, please let us know if they have rectified the problems and if the other recommendations had the desired results. Thank you
I have tested the 8.5.1. SR1 version. I have started to build my project file and my .fdf file from beginning, it means there has been no possibilty of a prospective old corrupted files influence. The problems with the Paste link command between different Workbooks described in my second post (05/25/2011) persist. After large number of fitting procedures, the column values stopped to be upgradded correctly using Set column value command even in the case using paste link command in the frame of one workbook. After adding + 0 into set column value command, upgrading started to be upgraded automatically again.
When I closed the software, then started again with the second new project and tried to open the .fdf file builded in the framework of the first project, the software stopped any response. It means there is with high probability new bug. As I mentioned, all work was done using new 8.5.1. SR1 version.
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cpyang
USA
1406 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 10:16:52 PM
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quote:
After large number of fitting procedures, the column values stopped to be upgradded correctly using Set column value command even in the case using paste link command in the frame of one workbook. After adding + 0 into set column value command, upgrading started to be upgraded automatically again.
We greatly appreciate your finding of such bugs, as very few users are using Origin in this more advanced fashion of auto recalculate using fitting results in further computations.
But it likes like we may need your new OPJ (and FDF) to find out exactly what was wrong. From your description and earlier files, we fixed a couple of bugs and your earlier OPJ was working fine from our end.
We will produce a new service release (SR2) shortly, but we need to have your files to make sure all the issues are resolved.
Thanks again for your help.
CP
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 04:11:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cpyang
We greatly appreciate your finding of such bugs, as very few users are using Origin in this more advanced fashion of auto recalculate using fitting results in further computations.
But it likes like we may need your new OPJ (and FDF) to find out exactly what was wrong. From your description and earlier files, we fixed a couple of bugs and your earlier OPJ was working fine from our end.
We will produce a new service release (SR2) shortly, but we need to have your files to make sure all the issues are resolved.
Thanks again for your help.
CP
I have already sent the files to Easwar together with more detailed information about problems.
I can add that problem with the frozen software is reproducible. It repeats each time I try to do the same procedure.
I have still one note to editing of the fitting functions. If I change only one field, It is annoying that it is not possible to save changes immesdiately, because the Save bottom is still inactive. It is necessary to click on the another field and only then is the Save bottom active.
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cpyang
USA
1406 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 07:53:25 AM
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quote:
I have still one note to editing of the fitting functions. If I change only one field, It is annoying that it is not possible to save changes immesdiately, because the Save bottom is still inactive. It is necessary to click on the another field and only then is the Save bottom active.
We have many people complained about this and we have not found a solution. When you are making changes in an edit box, the software dose not know that you have made changes yet until you click something else to indicate it, but what we CAN do is not to disable the Save button at all, so that if you have not made changes yet, clicking it will do nothing and we will inform you of that fact.
CP
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 08:50:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cpyang
We have many people complained about this and we have not found a solution. When you are making changes in an edit box, the software dose not know that you have made changes yet until you click something else to indicate it, but what we CAN do is not to disable the Save button at all, so that if you have not made changes yet, clicking it will do nothing and we will inform you of that fact.
CP
I think it is not meaningful to inform an user that no saving has been done in the case no changes were made. The arrangemment that the Save button is always active and the pressing the button results in saving (in tha case the changes have been done) or in no action without any message (in the case no changes have been done) is logical and used by many softwares. I think there is no reason to look for a different way. |
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 09:14:59 AM
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| I have found further bug. If you use the Fit until converged button and then the OK button in the Non-linear curve fit to process and finish the fit, the initialization of parameters in the subsequent newly started non-linear curve fit session is not done correctly in the way described in the field for Parameter initialization. If the first fitting run is done using directly the Fit button, the initialization in the newly started non-linear Curve fit is processed properly. This problem is not crucial, but it is, unfortunately, further example of the fact that there are a lot of bugs in the Origin software. |
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asp
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 11:02:47 AM
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Let me put my two cents in this topic.
I have been recently informed that a bug I reported for v 8.5.0 was successfully fixed in v 8.5.1. This is great news but the problem is that in order to use it I have to upgrade to version 8.5.1. Also, I have feeling that they are not going to fix it in v. 8.5.0. In other words for the bug fixing I have to pay extra. This is very disturbing because I start to worry that soon for each service release users will have to pay extra. You can also judge for yourself how frequently service releases are coming out. It has not been a month since v8.5.1 announcement and they are talking about SR2 already.
I would be pleased to have new features declared in v.8.5.1 but I am happy with what I have already in v.8.5.0, just fix found bugs. Production of service releases brings confidence to users that the software is still reliable. I understand it does not bring money but what about quality of Origin software? Let me assure you that in many ways there is still nothing close to Origin on the market. Is it possible for Origin team to calm down and focus on fixing existing bugs rather than introducing new ones?
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Laurie
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 12:22:11 PM
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quote:
I have found further bug. If you use the Fit until converged button and then the OK button in the Non-linear curve fit to process and finish the fit, the initialization of parameters in the subsequent newly started non-linear curve fit session is not done correctly in the way described in the field for Parameter initialization. If the first fitting run is done using directly the Fit button, the initialization in the newly started non-linear Curve fit is processed properly. This problem is not crucial, but it is, unfortunately, further example of the fact that there are a lot of bugs in the Origin software.
When you click the Fit Until Converged Button and then click OK, if you Change Parameters to reopen the NLFit dialog, the starting parameter values will be the end parameter values from fitting. This is by design. You can then continue fitting from this point.
When you click the Fit button, the fit is performed and the dialog is automatically closed. When reopening via Change Parameters, the starting parameter values will be determined by the parameter initialization code.
OriginLab Technical Support |
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larry_lan
China
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Posted - 06/08/2011 : 03:14:39 AM
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Hi Stephan:
Regarding the question you (hovorkas) asked, Laurie has replied it's by design. Here is the logic (I supposed the "subsequent newly started non-linear curve fit session is "Change Parameters"?):
1. User click "Fit Until Converged" button, and then click "OK" button
2. User click "Fit Until Converged" button, and then click "Done" button.
3. User click "Fit" button directly.
4. User click "Done" button directly, or user click "1 Iteration" several times and then click "Done" button.
For ANY option of above, after fit, and you select "Change Parameters", the initial values will be the LAST value you saw in NLFit dialog, Parameters tab.
For example, in case 1, you have click "Fit Untill Converged", it means the parameters are OK. Then the last values are those fitted values. So when you Change Parameters, you will see some "perfect values".
However, in case 3, you opened the dialog, the initial values are generated from initial code or something else. It's not the final fitted value. And now you click "Fit", the dialog will close and Origin will fit the curve. Then you open the dialog again. Now, the Parameters tab shows the last value you opened the dialog -- values that generated from initial code.
Different from "Fit" button, "Done" button means you "accept the current values shown on Parameters tab". Say, you click "1 Iteration" once, and then "Done". Then you choose "Change Parameters", Origin will use the same logic -- the Parameters tab show the last parameter values you saw in Parameters tab.
Origin uses LM (Levenberg-Marquardt) algorithm to fit a curve. This algorithm strongly depends on parameter initial values. And the reason we doing this are:
To avoid fit failed
This is the main reason. In case 3. If you select "Change Parameters", and we shows the fitted values. For some data/function, it's perfect fitted already. And then the fitter cannot find a way to reduced chi-square. Then the fitter will trap in a local minimum chi-square, and reports "Fit cannot converged because no way to reduced chi-square".
You won't see this issue in other produce since they don't provide change parameters/recalculation features like Origin.
Number of Iterations
This is a true user story. For example in Case 3. If you select "Change Parameters", and if we initialize the parameter values by those fitted values. You can also do some iterations by some data/functions. However, the "Number of Iterations" in the report worksheet are different. We got feedback from some beta tester that they doubt our results because they think they just click recalculation and do nothing, why the number of iteration changed! This is another reason we use this mechanism.
Is it clear? Do you think it's acceptable?
Thanks
Larry |
Edited by - larry_lan on 06/08/2011 03:40:03 AM |
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 04:07:02 AM
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the response to larry lan and Laurie:
Thank you for your explanation. I understand to the idea of the design and it sounds meaningfully. The problem is that an user gets information "Parameter Initialization was called." at re-opening of the Non-linear Curve Fit window independetly, of which procedure was followed at the first run of the Non-linear Curve Fit (Fit until converged + OK buttons or Fit button directly). Therefore it is logical to assume that the parameter initialization procedure has been processed in both cases. Due to this mentioned fact I think it is still possible to call the problem as a bug and I reccommend to make changes to allow an user to see unambiguously the starting point at re-opening of Non-linear Curve Fit window. I think the problem is an example how the OriginLab software developers underestimate a necessity of a lucidity in the software design where is no place for an ambiguity. |
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tigers1904
United Kingdom
1 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 07:23:26 AM
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| I totally agree with what is been said here.... |
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 09:14:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by asp
Let me put my two cents in this topic.
I have been recently informed that a bug I reported for v 8.5.0 was successfully fixed in v 8.5.1. This is great news but the problem is that in order to use it I have to upgrade to version 8.5.1. Also, I have feeling that they are not going to fix it in v. 8.5.0. In other words for the bug fixing I have to pay extra. This is very disturbing because I start to worry that soon for each service release users will have to pay extra. You can also judge for yourself how frequently service releases are coming out. It has not been a month since v8.5.1 announcement and they are talking about SR2 already.
I would be pleased to have new features declared in v.8.5.1 but I am happy with what I have already in v.8.5.0, just fix found bugs. Production of service releases brings confidence to users that the software is still reliable. I understand it does not bring money but what about quality of Origin software? Let me assure you that in many ways there is still nothing close to Origin on the market. Is it possible for Origin team to calm down and focus on fixing existing bugs rather than introducing new ones?
The version 8.5.0 is really the recent version. If the OriginLab developers/programmers do not fix the problem in this version, you will have a right to ask for free upgrade, according to me, on the base of running warranty period - they sold you the product, where the real functionality is worse than the declared functionality due to the software bugs. The OriginLab company has to guarantie the declared functionality. It is OriginLab's problem, if it is able to fix the problem only by the upgrade. The upgrade fixing the bugs coverred by warranty should be for free.
I agree with your opinions concerning high frequency of the new versions and service releases and the problem with the software quality. I tried to express similar opinions in my previous posts.
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hovorkas
10 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2011 : 06:33:56 AM
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After some time I continue with using of the OriginLab software (8.5.1. SR2 now). There is a problem with a fdf files managment. If you try to use the Add button in the Fitting function organizer to add e.g. the user defined fdf files from previous versions, you have succes at the first attempt. But if you forget to add all fdf files at the first attempt, you are not able to add further files in the further steps. If you try it, the nonsensical error message "The file name exist!" is shown despite of the fact that such fdf file was not added by the Add button before.
Concerning previous bugs I found, I admit that the OriginLab staff has been working on it and the situation improved, but it is really time consuming and frustrating for me to deal with new and new bugs.
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Hideo Fujii
USA
1582 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2011 : 1:02:46 PM
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Hi hovorkas,
I have tried the FDF issue you pointed out, but so far I couldn't reproduce the problem. Maybe it depends on some specific operations, or with specific conditions. Anyway, could you please make this specific issue as a separate thread, as a manner of forum so that other forum readers who have similar problems, or some ideas to solve, can find the thread more easily?
Thank you very much.
--Hideo Fujii
OriginLab |
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ashlymeyer
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2011 : 10:22:01 AM
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| This is my first time I have visited your site. I found a lot of interesting stuff in your blog. From the tons of comments on your articles, I guess I am not the only one! keep up the good work. |
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garyware12
Germany
3 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2022 : 04:14:48 AM
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| Speaking about different types of software I found for myself. Good tool for all types of work. I have my own small business and it helps me to work better |
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Topic |
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Is Origin a reliable software working properly? No